(This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.)

LP: I spent time listening to both of the newest records back and forth, back to back—such a spectrum of sound.

Gordon Grdina: I've been releasing things like that recently, kind of, to complement each other instead of doing similar things at the same time. So that's the idea. They're both finished at the same time too, so, you know, quite easy.

LP: I was curious about that. Given how prolific you are or have been, especially over the last few years, do you work on projects in parallel or on them linearly and then post-production? Do you have a method for your madness?

Gordon Grdina: The duo record with Christian we had recorded—I can't even remember now, but there's a different tour I was on. I had a few days off and was close, so I could make it happen. But that was two years before it came out or a year before. So it's like capturing the kind of music is the most important thing. So, I am trying to find that whenever I can get it, when it's happening, or when there's an opportunity to do it, I am a little slow getting them finished.

So, I've finished a few things and decided how to release them. So there is a process to it that way, but I'm always working on things at the same time. And they're kind of project-based where this project's coming up. So, I'm writing a whole bunch for this. I'm recording for this. And then once that's finished, it's like right on to something else. The ADHD way of making music or something, but the key I've found because I've had that, that disposition to want to be interested in a lot of different things and be thinking about them at the same time is that when I'm doing them, I have to just like a hundred percent focus on what that is and what that project is.

And then it works out. And then I've kind of caught a pretty streamlined post-production setup, for the most part, working with the same person. I've worked with John Raham in Vancouver and love the studio there. And we'll record at that studio whenever I have bands here because I love it. We've got all the great amps. I love all the great sounds. And then we've got a pretty quick mixing kind of process. So the post-production goes pretty smoothly, except there are exceptions, but for the most part, I do that. And that makes it streamlined.

LP: Given how much of your work essentially consists of these different sets of collaborators or collaborative contexts, do you always record in person with the ensembles? Or are you one of those folks that you're moving files around, and people are adding pieces, or is it more project-specific?

Gordon Grdina: Everything is in person for now. That's the big thing; I haven't done much remote recording. That's the process. I like listening to a lot of music that isn't made that way. It's kind of a distinction I've started to develop. There's a dissimilar way in which sometimes I like listening to music instead of how I like to make it. I like to make it in person with people doing it. That's how I think I work best, which is how it works in this instant. We're just playing, and then I'm capturing it.

But you know, I listen to all kinds of music pieced together like that sometimes. The only exception is that the recording process is always that way. And then sometimes I've had a secondary studio process where I've edited, put things together, and moved some things around. That's happened only a couple of times. It happened on the record I did in Japan a few years ago with a band called the Twain with Kōichi Makigami, Michiyo Yagi, and Tamaya Honda. And it was like six hours of music. So, I kind of edited that into one long piece. It's about an hour and 20 minutes.

So that's the one time that I've done that. And then, in this duo work record, we recorded a bunch of songs and did a bunch of improvs. Then, I edited, mixed, and put them that way. So that's the most post-production way I've gotten into it, but the actual creation for me is with the people in the room, which I found the best.

LP: Yeah, reading a little bit about how Duo Work came together is intriguing. So much of the copy I've read about the record emphasizes your use of your MIDI setup.

Gordon Grdina: Oh, yeah.

LP: What struck me as a listener was when I think about some of the MIDI guitar sounds, more from when guitarists first started stumbling across the MIDI capability in the late 80s and early 90s. People would try to make saxophone sounds and all this stuff. In this instance, other than song two at the end of the record, that's like a sonic landscape that doesn't seem capable of just a guitar, but a lot of it just seemed like exploratory guitar music. It wasn't this notion of a guitar player trying to sound like a horn section or something like that. And I very much appreciated that it didn't lose the guitar-ness.

Gordon Grdina: Oh, good. Nice. Yeah. That's been the concept, and I didn't want to be a band in a box situation. That wasn't what I was trying to do. The idea was just a sonic thing. It was just trying to have, like, I want to add these colors to what's happening and the whole setup and how I've made it somewhat difficult. I'm not a great techie guy, for sure. Even guitar pedals, I've never been completely into. I love the sounds and working with it, but I get exhausted. Some people love that. I just want to make music and have it happen. So I don't want to, you know, but that was similar as it took a while to get because I want the interface to be completely natural.

So I can improvise, do whatever I want, and just play with what I hear. But then I've got this new kind of palette of sounds that I can also use. It's taken a while to get there. And during the process of making the record, we didn't have any of those sounds while we were making it. I have a sort of big guitar sound setup where I split, and I've got bass and guitar going simultaneously through amps, and that's how we played it.

So everything's just alive off the floor. And then, while that was happening, I tracked MIDI, but we worked listening to it. That kind of came about: I could take that information and add colors and everything I wanted to later in the studio. And then now, since we've been working on it, or I've been working on my setup, I've got a live setup where I can have all that and switch between them on the fly as a kind of bigger palette so that I can do that at the moment and not have it be like, "Oh, it'd be nice if this line had that sound of acoustic bass, or if this line had that sound of strings or keys or something." So now I can, we can be playing live, and I can, I've got a new setup where I can just, it's like guitar foot pedals. So it's got this instantaneous thing that was very guitaristic and just an extension of what I'm already doing in a sonic state more than, like, I couldn't afford to hire a bass player.

And it was also like, Christian's such a force and sonic player; he sounds like this whole MIDI system in one. So it was like trying to match that space with something that adds a bigger sound.

LP: There was some cool interplay, like one part on one of the tracks. I apologize, I don't recall which one, but it sounds like you're working on the volume knob or something, but it's a stutter stop effect you're going with. He's right there, and you guys are sort of having this great conversation between drums and the guitar, but it's a fleeting moment. It was just great. It's fun.

Gordon Grdina: Oh, nice.

LP: You self-identified as not very techie a moment ago. But you then just elaborated on that there's some work there. Do you have a technology Sherpa? Are you experimenting? Like, how did you get to the live rig? Is it just you out in the wilderness figuring it out?

Gordon Grdina: Yeah, it was a lot of that. I've got a couple of friends I would like to consult with who are more in that world and do much more MIDI stuff. And I was using Logic. That's how I originally found all my sounds and made a bunch of samples because that was a recording process at first.

But then I found out that the program isn't great for live. So then my friend was like, "You need to be using this bro." So I had to learn Ableton or a new program for it. So that was new. Then, we did our debut live duo concert in Belgium in February, when the album was released. And then I figured out the whole system, got a MIDI pedal, and figured that out online, like which ones would work like a controller.

Oh, I've got a controller, a foot switch so that I can switch things from Ableton with my feet because most people just use knobs and use their hands. I want to be able to do it on the fly. So I finally got the tricks, and then it broke like the day before, so they called all these people. I panicked, but I found one and learned it on the plane. And then I finally got it on the plane, got there, and had a day to get it to work. And it worked. So it was, it's been a bit of a learning curve, figuring that out, but it's been me doing that and then just. There's everything on the internet now. It was very good to do, you know, you can find it that way. And then when I had really specific things that I couldn't find, because some of the things I was doing and like, I've got some new ideas on what I do as well, are like, they're not really what people use it for regularly.

LP: You know, you have a working history with Christian, but I wonder, could you peel back a layer on that and tell me a little bit more about the genesis of your relationship? How did you two encounter each other and this ongoing dialogue you now have musically?

Gordon Grdina: It's funny. I was on tour with another great drummer from here, Kenton Loewen, in Vancouver, and a great horn player, Günter Heinz, from Germany, from Dresden, Christian's hometown. And we played at this small festival. I can't remember its name right now. And we played with this trio. It was a strange festival, like a really weird mix of music. And some of it, like at the time, we were just not into it at all. But we stayed to the end. And there was one more band at the end. We had no idea what it was. And it was a Hyperactive Kid, Christian, Philipp Gropper, and Ronny Graupe. It was killing it. We're just like, "Oh, what? And how did, what is this now?" All this festival happened, and suddenly, this incredible thing happened at the end, and we just loved it. And, uh, I met them then, and I was like, "Oh man, this is incredible." They love just playing. And that was it. We kind of kept in touch. All those guys, you know, kindred spirits.

And then I had a trio that I'd started with Shazad Ismaily and Mat Maneri. We had done a few gigs, and I loved what was happening, but I wanted to add something. And then, I thought, "Oh man, Christian would be great for this." So then we had a recording session, brought him in, or he came over. We did a little tour, and it worked perfectly. And that was Square Peg, which is another band we have. And then we have another record in the can that I'm working on currently.

LP: Of course you do. (laughter)

Gordon Grdina: So that's where it solidified that relationship. And then we did some tours with them, with Mat and Christian as a trio, and sort of developed out of that. And then the duo.

LP: Mat Maneri's name often comes up in these conversations. I hear many folks play with Mat Maneri, and I haven't had him on yet, but I will have to track him down. That's a name I encounter. He's prolific.

Gordon Grdina: Yeah, he's prolific and quite a unique boy. There's no one like Mat. He's incredible. He adds his thing. He's quite a unique individual who fits into everything. It's like he can, and he's interested and excited about different music. Yeah. I love playing with him.

LP: We pivot to talk about The Marrow. I wanted to ask you also what the live music scene is like for you or for improvised and creative music as well as, for lack of a better way to say it, the avant-garde. Instrumental, improv, jazz stuff. Do you have to leave Canada and North America to work mainly, or are there opportunities? Is there a scene in Vancouver? Could you break that down a little for me?

Gordon Grdina: I feel like there's a scene everywhere. There's a scene in Vancouver. I mean, I came out of it. We were very lucky. There's a jazz festival here. Ken Pickering ran it for years and had a great love of it. European improvised music and American, like there are people that are kind of like stars in this scene in Vancouver that aren't in most, in North America or like in the rest of Canada, even that kind of really developed the scene.

And he was great about mixing. So he, like the generation older than me, was among the first to play with all these Europeans, and they got all these, and these connections started happening. And because Vancouver, in particular, is so isolating, there are all these trade problems with the U.S. We can't just go over and play music, so you get stuck. And then you can't go to Seattle, and going east takes forever until you get somewhere. That isolation was helped by these people coming in, and it fostered this scene every year. So I'm like when I grew up, I already knew a lot of these musicians.

I feel like the city kind of punched above its weight for how big it is or something like that. So it helped to advance the sort of avant-garde or experimental music plus, because it's a little smaller, everybody plays with everybody. So you end up with this cross-genre stuff happening so that there's a lot of straight-ahead guys playing with free guys and a lot of global music. There's a huge Persian community here, so all these things blended. Hence, it's quite an interesting scene, but yes, I've been traveling a lot more, and that's sort of like just trying to get out because I'm from here. So it starts to feel like a small city, even though it's got amazing players and there's incredible music happening. You want to keep expanding. So I have been moving a lot. I spend a lot of time in New York and Europe, making more connections and traveling more. So I could play this music regularly in Vancouver. Still, I've been stepping back, and I'm less involved in the scene in Vancouver just because of logistics, time, and everything, as well as because I am focused on projects and traveling more.

But I do find that there is a kind of scene everywhere because it, I feel like it's really, it's one of those things that it doesn't take that many people to make the scene happen because the experience of the music is so important for people that you just need a few people that get it. Then they kind of get it and want to do it. So, build up these connections where there are places to play, and people are pushing it because it changes your life a bit or gives this thing where you're like, this has to happen. This is what I'm missing. And I feel like that happens all over the world. So there is this, these pockets everywhere.

LP: I moved to Seattle about eight years ago, and I was in New York for a long time, most of the nineties until the mid-teens. And as you know, you can't throw a rock without hitting somewhere for people to play or to find adventurous, interesting music. And there's a downtown scene, and now there is so much going on in Brooklyn. It's New York, and everybody knows what's there. And I came out here very much with preconceived notions about what would be and wouldn't be here. And it's been really exciting, especially coming out of the pandemic, to see that, to your point, there's a, there's a handful of people that are driving some interesting locations for music, not necessarily traditional venues, although a couple of club type settings as well, but some phenomenal players.

I think there's also really good day job type work here. There are a lot of educators here. A lot of people came here from other places. So they're bringing different traditions and different packs of players that come through town. But I think the other thing that strikes me about some of these scenes is that because it draws from so many different types of music, you get free jazz improvised, people now from an electronic music background that are melding improvisation with that, you even get some of like, hardcore heavy metal scenes. I think of some John Zorn projects that are just like these melting pots of music. And when you put those in different cities, it gives you more of a base to draw from than an indie rock band or something like that. Like it's,

Gordon Grdina: Yeah, that's one of the things that I think that make it like avant-garde will never die (laughter) because it's, it, especially in this scenario, is because it is that free open aspect of it, which is what you need to have. It is open to all those things. So when you have that, it's the antithesis of music made for money, which is trying to define something so that you can package it and sell it. It's the opposite. So all those things and different genres are inherent in making the music, and you'll be open to these things. So it's like, wherever you are, wherever that is, it's about making the music with whoever's there and whatever's happening at that time. So it is this thing that just flourishes and has so many unique sounds and unique ways of doing it that it can't stop.

LP: Yeah, this may not be an original thought, but it strikes me talking to you that one may be more interested in the avant-garde across kinds of music than they might be about the mainstream of any given music. Like I can think of my experience as a sort of focus group of one; I'll listen to more extreme hardcore noise music than contemporary metal.

Gordon Grdina: Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

LP: I like the fringes of that more than I like the … I couldn't even give you an example, but there might be a 'there' there. And so you're drawing something similar, I guess, with mysticism behind all the mainstream spiritual paths, right? Like a mystic would understand Kabbalah, would understand Sufism, would, you know, would relate to a Christian mystic but might not be very interested in the orthodoxy of any of those paths. There's a there there, I think.

Gordon Grdina: I can see that. That partially obviously comes back to my thought about liking a bunch of different music, but not necessarily the process of how they're done. Is that same scenario that there's a lot of avant-garde things like wow, I'm inspired by what I'm hearing. Still, you think, oh man, I'd like to do something like that, and then you think about how you would make that, and it'd be like you. That doesn't sound very exciting to me, like how that's done. So then I don't want to do that, but I want to do, but I want to be inspired by that sound. And then have that come into my process of how it works. And that's similar to the mainstream situation as it is like the mainstream version, it can be exciting, but then you're like, "Oh, but it doesn't have all these other things or something." There's never that much depth or something, which makes it kind of interesting—the peripherals of everything.

LP: Is there a wall or a demilitarized zone for you between the guitar and the oud? And what I mean by that is, do you ever do any of the more experimental or electroacoustic things with the oud you're doing with the guitar? Do you slap the MIDI pickups on it? Do you process it? Or are those two different worlds?

Gordon Grdina: They're definitely not two different worlds. Like I was just mentioning, I did a solo concert last night, and it was the first time I'd ever done it with just an acoustic oud and an acoustic steel-string guitar. So I got a new 1930s Gibson that I love. So, playing that, and I haven't done that before, but I was noticing how I play now for both things, which is almost becoming the same, sounding less and less like an Arabic oud player and looking less like a guitar player. They're kind of just. And I noticed I was going, wow, these are turning into the same thing. It's just like this little sonic change, though. It's unifying more, I think, all those things.

So then, a lot of the opposite processes started to happen, but I do have a mic for the processing, and I sometimes process the guitar pedals. I don't do MIDI stuff with it, but. There's been a few things that have been processed that way, but I haven't totally explored that yet. I've been more focused on the acoustic timbre of the instrument for most things, but it isn't because it's divided, and I want it a certain way. I want this a certain way. I was divided when I first started learning the instrument because I needed to learn and understand it to use and play it. And because of my love of the music, I wanted to honor that music as best as I could. But it's such a history and such a sound with that music. You're like delving into a new world that was new to me.

So, I studied it specifically to understand what was happening there as best I could. So that was when I was more specific. And then since then, when I'm like, okay, well, that's sort of like a study. That's not like me being me. So then, once I had that as a study and part of my skill set, I could make my music. And then that comes with some nods and homage to this other history and sound of creation. I'm not trying to speak for Arabic music. I'm being me with this instrument, and it's paying homage to all these great people that come out of this history.

LP: I've talked to other Western-born players who play Eastern instruments or instruments from those traditions. I wonder how you navigate perceptions or feelings or whether you have any concerns around things like exoticism or even kitsch or a more extreme version could be musical colonialism, or like are these notions in your consciousness ever, and do you have to wrestle with that or is this just like it's about purity of intent?

Gordon Grdina: Yeah, of course, that's been a big thing, you know, it's a range of things if you're going to be dogmatic to a certain point, and no one's ever allowed to create anything because all music is some sort of combination of other things and influences that come from people and what they hear. I cannot have heard what I've heard. So, for me, there's a process of intent, which is a big one, and then authenticity, like what makes something authentic. And it's like, I feel like it has to do with time spent and what you've done for that music. So, the time spent with the instrument gives you authenticity on what that is. And then that gives you the ability to understand this whole, uh, like a whole other music-making process.

So, in that sense, that allows you to be able to make music and connect with people in different traditions and be able to have something to say and to talk to them like you would in any conversation and sort of celebrating those differences in how you are creating these new things. So when I play with more traditional musicians in different styles, we're conversing between two people. And part of mine is my interest in what they're doing and how they're doing something. And then I'm not trying to take advantage of them. I want to create with them. It goes both ways. So they're both having a conversation, which interacts with one another. I'm not trying to take advantage of them in my process. I'm trying to have all of us have an exchange in what's going on.

So, in that sense, it's a thing, but it's a constant awareness of what's happening because you can step over that line in some sense. Also, you become too timid and unable to speak how you want. And I came to many conclusions when I was studying, like trying to play Arabic oud and figure out how these people are. It's the same thing as my understanding jazz music. Or when I first started understanding blues music. To be an authentic blues player doesn't mean you have to have suffered in any real physical sense, but it's like you must live with the music. You have to know what's happening there. And then sometimes that is part of it, but like that comes out in the jazz comes out, and it depends on what you can do, you know, and being honest with what you can connect with and then express.

You connect with it in a certain way and can express that because you have similar things. You're speaking from a similar place. So it's like I had to do the same thing with jazz. And then, at a certain point, I'm a nonauthentic enough for jazz or something. Someone's always going to be pissed. (laughter) Yeah. But it's like the jazz musicians I love; this is exactly what they were doing. So that kind of thing, you have to weed through and see who is pushing a certain thing because that's how they feel. And then how you're honest with what you want to do, who you love, and how you express it. And I feel like each individual needs to answer that for themselves, based on their feelings, whether this is a real honest thing they're trying to express.

LP: I'd say this from probably a position of some privilege given who I am and my background, but what you just articulated also strikes me as the beauty in all these musics is their ability to have these dialogues across time and space and culture and backgrounds. Again, I don't want to sound naive, but that's beautiful.

Gordon Grdina: You talk to musicians; musicians want to play with each other. Like all these political things, which are much more complex than they are musically, we're all humans. So whenever you do this, you speak directly to what it means to be human. And sound is a thing that directly defines what it means to be human. Even the meaning of poetry is different when you don't understand it, but when you hear what someone's saying, you get this thing from it. It's not specifically what the words were, but you get this deeper understanding of what they're trying to express. And we all share that because we all are stuck in the human condition. We all have things and varying degrees of suffering and joy, as well as everything that we all live in our lives. We're just trying to connect. Music is a place where you can connect with everyone no matter what. And it's beautiful and a great way to show how the world should be. Deep down, that is how it is. We're all more connected than we're not. You know.

LP: Yeah, yeah.

Gordon Grdina: Yeah. You know, without sounding too naive about it. But that's like sort of a utopian way because all this other shit gets in the way. When you play music, you can just do that. You can play with anyone. I've never had a situation where I've gone to play music with someone, and they've been like, I won't play with this guy because of this political thing or something like that. I haven't had that situation happen. Well, that's also maybe the people I choose to play with and this music because it's very open. I'm sure that has happened anyway. I'm just mean like that. That's been my experience.

LP: I think a lot of this also relates to the fact that you know, you said something earlier about you did the work, like you went and studied. You weren't a dilettante with the instrument.

Gordon Grdina: Yeah. Yeah.

LP: And I wonder, as you immerse yourself in the music and the tradition and the instrument and then you started to re-emerge back into making your music and figuring out how to incorporate all this, how familiar were you or how much did you look at other figures who had attempted similar things. I think of Ornette Coleman obviously as an obvious one or, to an extent, Coltrane. I've talked to other oud players, in particular, who mentioned Lloyd Miller as someone who, very early on, tried to bridge American or Western jazz with Eastern music.

I was unfamiliar with Lloyd Miller until I had turned on to it. I would encourage you to go back and listen to him. I think music from the 50s and early 60s made, yeah, in that era when, in America, especially, exoticism was a thing. People were into Hawaii Polynesian stuff, and Asian exoticism was very kitschy. He was making a very authentic hybrid of jazz and Persian music, even to the extent of trying to learn Farsi. He was very earnest. I want to have to check that out. Along those lines, my entryway into a lot of this music is, And again, I don't think this is an incredibly original pathway, but with Simon Shaheen and particularly his record of the music of Mohamed Abdel Wahab, which, oh yeah, I mean, it's one of my favorite albums to this day.

Gordon Grdina: I was on tour once, and we went down with an avant-garde rock band. The band was like, there was actually like a kind of scrap on stage. Look, look, look, look, It wasn't like a super harmonious band. We were in there for a while. We went to Seattle, and we came back, we played this gig, and someone, someone did kind of piss someone off, and it was upsetting, and we were trying to find music to play on the radio, and everyone didn't want to hear anything.

And then I was like, "Hey, check this out." I put that record on, and we listened to it four times. Like, it never stopped. Everyone just showed up and was just like, "God damn it." That music just hits everyone. Like you listen to that, and you're like, "God damn," you know, that's that power of connecting those things. And that, I mean, someone should, he, for me is, was huge with the oud that his record with Vishwa Mohan Bhatt, where that's a fusion right there that happened. That's like the first time I heard the oud, and it just, you know, blew my mind that that sound could happen on an instrument. And I was like, love it.

And then I just kept starting listening to all kinds of different players. And so that's kind of where it came in. But I loved improvising when I was 13, learning guitar and how to play the blues and improvise. As soon as I played guitar, it was like improvising. So, you get a pentatonic scale, and I was like, I'm done. I'm good. And then everything just built out of there. I got interested in jazz and those things, but I had a great teacher who was good at just showing me new music every week. He'd come with different CDs. And so the concept of bridging things together or connecting them was early, early on.

So the concept of not doing that is more weird to me. Yeah. So the concept of just, we're going only to make music, jazz music, but it's from the fifties like that concept or something just is completely foreign to how I feel, think, and, and everything to do with how I think about music. So the fusion of like thinking, okay, well, this is Eastern, this is Western, mixing them is just, I, I always listened to them together. It didn't really; there weren't really that many people. I was like, "Oh, what will I do to put these together?" It's just I already heard it. It was just like, that's what it is.

Even like the record I made with Gary Peacock and Paul Motian playing that music, I heard the oud with those guys because I saw many similarities between free improv and taqsim. Because of the Arabic music, how much they modulate, and particularly the way Gary and that sort of like more like Gary Paul Bley vibe and him promoting how they play together. So then, when we went to record that, I wanted to do that for sure. I remember we were doing one thing, and Paul said, "Man, I don't know what the hell you want. We're playing this thing in seven, and he's like, I don't know what the hell you want. This isn't working." And I was like, "No, this is exactly what I want. Like this thing, I want you to just like do you on this thing and me and Gary," and then, you know, the record comes back and he's like, "Man, I love that shit." His favorite thing out of it. (laughter)

LP: That's some heady company, man, to be in. Wow.

Gordon Grdina: Oh yeah. Paul Motian and I only did the recording for a couple of days. I worked them quite hard. Now that I think about it being much older and looking at it and like, "Oh man, I worked him way harder than I should have," that was great. And then, you know, we only had a few interactions, Paul and I, but Gary, I studied with him for five years. Yeah. We were tight or tight for a period. He was one of the few people who could have completely changed my understanding of music.

LP: Could you easily sum up how?

Gordon Grdina: Gary studied biology in Japan. So, he had this amazing way of articulating organic construction.

LP: Systems.

Gordon Grdina: Systems. Yeah, totally. And, um, going through school was easy for me because technically I had figured out a bunch of things already, but the conception of people there and that the teachers were really like, A plus B equals C. And it just went away. I knew they were wrong. I'd go to school, and I'd just be like, this is bullshit, but I couldn't articulate exactly what was happening. Working with Gary and understanding how he hears music changed everything to the point that it was like he could articulate all the things that no one talks about, he can articulate.

So as you're sitting there, you talk, "Oh man, like the magic, that's this thing" or something, or like, everyone's got those records where they're like, "Well, what the hell is happening?" Gary's got a wonderful way of articulating all those things. So, all the nooks and crannies were these mystery spots in music that I couldn't get anybody to talk about or think about, and Gary could just really articulate those things. So that was one way he changed how I think about and hear music.

LP: I saw Simon Shaheen once. There was a festival in New Haven, Connecticut. Gotta be 30 years ago now. He played and performed in a chapel at Yale on campus. It was a performance and demonstration. So he played the oud, told stories about the instrument, and played violin, which was like a demonstration of the music. It was just so accessible and so beautiful, not watered down, you know. It was like he said, "Here's a platter with all this delicious food on it. Let me tell you what I've prepared for you." I remember it like it was yesterday. I can remember where I was sitting and the angle at which I was watching it. It was just stunning.

Gordon Grdina: Wow. It's incredible.

LP: This has been a while ago now, a year and a half. Mark Helias was on, and he was on with Jane Ira Bloom. They did a record during the pandemic with Bobby Previte. They recorded together but remotely. Something I talked to them about was that I hadn't read anything about the record before I listened to it. So I didn't know. And I was so grateful because you couldn't tell. These improvisations they did together, they figured out the technology lag. They were able to, through telepresence, create these improvisations together. It's phenomenal work, but he's an amazing bass player, and his work is on The Marrow. Between him and the cello work, it just adds an element.

Gordon Grdina: It's always been important to me, I should say, the Duo Work record; that's kind of like a special release, and that's Christian who did the cover. But it's funny because it's Christian and Catherine, his wife, she did that cover with him. When he sent it over, it was like, what about this? It was a quick thing. Gen and I saw the cover and said, "Oh my God, it's perfect." We loved it. Those photos come from her; I think it's Catherine's mom who traveled, and they are all her travel photos. So, I don't know where it's, where it came from, or what it is.

LP: Beautiful.

Gordon Grdina: I don't think he even knows, but that one's from there. And then the other one, the aesthetic, has always been there. We had this aesthetic, and it's always been important. I've always been biting my nails over what the cover looks like. And then with Gen, it's just like this great way of, like, I'll have an idea, and I'll be like, "Oh, I found this piece of art. I'm thinking about it for this." And then we'll have a big discussion about it like this won't work. You have to do this. There have been many similarities, such as when we did the cover for the Twain, the Japanese record. We went through a million other things trying to figure out an image that could capture the music until we concluded that we came up with an image that was the antithesis of the music.

What happened was, "Oh, that made sense to us." We're like, that's the way it should be. And then a lot of it is like the cover, with everything having its appeal on its own and then having some connection to the music. That feeling of it's like trying to make a little visual art, you know? Yeah. Because like really when you're buying CDs and albums, you're trying to buy this artifact that gives what you're doing more space and more presence because the digital world is so fleeting and so unromantic.

LP: Many artists I speak to have set up their label imprints, maybe through distribution companies. And I get it from a financial point of view. It's not like somebody is stroking hundred-thousand-dollar checks to improvise music artists to go live the dream. But I wonder, is there an ambition, or is it simply a vehicle through which you can articulate your projects? Or do you see this as a platform for other kinds of music or artists, or do you have any vision around that?

Gordon Grdina: As a collaborative thing, it's always been less open to having other artists contribute or add to it. I've got so many things happening, then it's kind of like, filled it up. So, it basically is a vehicle for my work and what's happening. But I'm still looking for some projects on other labels. Because they'll make more sense, or maybe they'll be able to get it to a different audience that will help with that particular album or sound. I'm trying to make a place with that label. That's just like all my stuff in one spot. So you can see it over, and all the things connect.

Because I feel like the real statement is like the broadness of it and the different things together. When I didn't have it, I couldn't release things quickly enough, which is one thing. But then the other thing was just like, I'd put on a record, and it would get reviewed, and they would have missed three records that happened in between. So, they're relating this record to something like four years old, and it was like, well, you didn't get the context of how the music came to where it is now. That still happens a little bit because not everybody can hear everything. But at least in this case, there's, like, when I'm releasing something that's coming from the same place, it's getting to the same people. And that's partially why I'm releasing a lot of records. Like two records at a time, they complement each other and give this package of what's happening so that you can relate it to what else is happening. It gives it more impact and an idea of what is being created.

LP: Yeah, that's really hip. Before I let you go, give me the names of some oud players you might recommend I check out this weekend.

Gordon Grdina: Oh, I'm out of the loop on that. (laughter) But you must know the main ones, like Hamza El Din. I'm realizing more and more how much he's been a big influence on how I played. Najib Shaheen is great, too. It's Simon's brother. I love his playing. I don't even think he records. I've just seen him play live. And then my teacher, Serwan Yamolky, is wonderful. He's got a record out. He's an amazing musician and poet, and he's written many poetry books, but he didn't record that much because he's like a perfectionist. It was hard, and you know, it's hard to get things recorded, but some friends of mine made a record with him, which is great. And Eyvind Kang's on it, and François Houle's on that. Oh, Serwan Yamolky, one of my favorite oud players, and my teacher, Rahim AlHaj. Do you know Rahim? He's in, uh, another Iraqi player. He's in Albuquerque now. He sent some stuff, which is great. And he's a good friend. We might be doing some stuff together that is coming up. And Naseer Shamma, another Iraqi oud player. He's great. And, of course, you know, like Farid al-Atrash.

LP: Yeah. A lot of them. Yeah. The major, yeah. I want to, yeah, I appreciate you helping me go a little deeper, though. That's great. Thank you for your time and all the great music. I feel so grateful to now have that link to your Bandcamp page. And I've got a lot of, uh, I've got a lot of listening to do.

Gordon Grdina: Well, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

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