Jonathan Shank of Terrapin Station Ent.: from Mickey Hart to Peppa Pig

(This transcript has been edited for clarity.)

LP: Do me a favor. Give us the who and what of Terrapin.

Jonathan Shank: So, Terrapin Station Entertainment started in 2020, at the height of the pandemic. I had always thought of Terrapin Station as this mythical place where all these characters gathered and where everybody came for the show. We were producing a lot out of this intellectual property and these iconic characters from Disney, Warner Brothers, Peppa Pig, etc. And so, it always thought of, you know, Terrapin Station as the place where all the characters gather. It felt like a natural starting point for our company. I was really enamored with that song and composition. It bridges the two worlds between what I've done in the past and where I'm heading in the future. I once saw The Dead ten or twelve times in one summer. And I started to take it personally that Terrapin Station wasn't played at any of those shows.

LP: I remember that feeling, like, what the fuck? Why am I not getting Scarlet Fire? Everybody else is getting Scarlet Fire.

Jonathan Shank: (laughter) Yeah. How is it? They're fun conversations to have now because it's like, man, I can't believe we actually got to think that way. There was so much to consume at that moment. It was an amazing time. The other thing about Terrapin Station is that's where my original roots in music are, my work with the Grateful Dead, and Mickey specifically, and his inspiration to me to push my career in various places. It really speaks back to that as well.

LP: Yeah. If Terrapin Station is the platform that you've built, what are the legs of the platform? What are the different things you all do?

Jonathan Shank: I break it down now into three pillars. One of them is licensing IP and developing and producing shows for stage. That can go from everything to the Bob Marley immersive that we've had in London, Toronto, and LA, and working alongside the Marley family, to the Disney Junior Live franchise, in which we've done almost 500 shows. That show is a preschool-driven show with all characters: Spider-Man, Ghost Spider, Mickey, Minnie, Goofy, and so on; it really runs the gamut of genres. That's one pillar that we do. We're continuing to license more IP and work with different rights holders in the family entertainment space, the game show space, and the podcasting space. The second pillar is that we have a network of stadiums that we work with across MLS, NFL, and Major League Baseball to help bring shows and content into those stadiums.

What started as one or two teams and really consulting for them and helping connect the dots for them with agents and promoters and helping to bring in shows has turned into a real kind of tentpole of our business. And we're blessed to have a Billy Joel and Stevie Nicks show next year, a couple of Luke Combs shows in Milwaukee, and a recently announced Kenny Chesney show. It's one of the fastest-growing parts of our business. It really speaks to the experience that we have both in producing shows and also in our connection to the music industry, the agent community, and the promoter community. So, that's been really exciting. And these teams, the goal there is a lot of them only get like a couple of shows a year. One, two, three shows a year. They'd like to take that number from two to four, or if they're getting four to six or to eight. There are limited windows to produce shows and content in these stadiums. That's been amazing. The third pillar, or leg, as you say, is our acquisitions, which we acquired Black Ink Presents this past year. And their specialty really is film to orchestra. A lot of what we're doing is nontraditional entertainment. And that's exciting.

Black Ink is a best-in-class service provider for production services below the line, but they are also amazing creatives, working across a lot of the top titles in the film to orchestra space, and that's really exciting for us. I'm continuing to look at IP in different ways. It doesn't all have to be live action or fit for a certain size theater or a certain size arena. We're malleable. So, it's really given a scale. So, if you look at those three legs, we're really focused on taking the foundation that we have—rising all those ships at one time.

LP: It's interesting because, given the era that you've been growing your businesses in, it seems like if somebody said, "What does Jonathan Shank do?" The answer would be that he takes the love and knowledge of music and live music but applies it in these: he goes fishing in ponds that other people aren't fishing in. So, in this world of corporate consolidation or intense competition, you've been able to take those principles and apply them in other areas. Is that fair?

Jonathan Shank: Definitely fair. Prior to producing shows, I was managing artists in the artist community and had a long history doing that. So, I think of all of these projects as if they were artists. I wanted to take those platforms and protocols and apply them to the more nontraditional experience. And with the partnerships that we have with Sony Music, they're aggressively wanting to build into the live music space, specifically into the nontraditional live music space. What we do really fits well within that partnership.

LP: I want to double-click on some of the pillars. Something I read you speaking about was this idea that there's the stadium, there's the field, but then there's like the physical plant of the stadium. I had a gig several years ago where I was looking at places for alternative programming. I remember touring some MLB stadiums and walking around the properties—that's a nightclub, and that's a silent disco room. That's a place where you could really do a cool thing with a speaker series. The stadium footprints are so interesting in terms of the little nooks and the different types of spaces. And I wonder, will we see you developing things around those areas, or are you just like, "It's the footprint of the field, get me 50,000 people, and I'm happy"?

Jonathan Shank: We're definitely looking at scaling different things. We have an EDM festival that's going into one of the MLS facilities, and it encompasses the whole facility. We are definitely working on some outside-of-the-stadium activations, parking lots, etc. And we have an exciting mini-golf activation that we're really psyched about. That's coming to life in 2024. You have to look at these things through your lenses—it's a big piece of real estate, and there are different ways that people consume events, entertainment, and content. Yeah, we're always thinking about that stuff, and we're definitely working on a handful of ways to bring people out to more than just game day or concert day.

LP: When you work with a new piece of IP, especially one that's sort of corporate-owned IP, something that's a brand we all know and love, or that we're familiar with, what's the creative development process like? Are you at that table? Are you driving that process? Or does the IP know what it wants to do?

Jonathan Shank: The short answer is that it's different for every rights owner. Some are more malleable and flexible than others. The Disney Junior Live Tour has been a true collaboration, and they have been amazing partners to work with. We build creative teams around each of these tours, so director, scriptwriter, choreographer, wardrobe, etc., and everybody has a seat at the table. There isn't a "It has to be this." There are, of course, certain things and guardrails that you work within, but there is a tremendous amount of creativity that goes into these shows. When you're working with these iconic brands, there is a lot of creative freedom. It's opened the door to working with so many other creative people, be they directors or choreographers, and challenging ourselves to bring in even better dancers. But just to give you an example, we're central in the casting process. On all of these tours, we are instrumental in talking through the creative, making sure the timing works, and making sure that the movements work on stage. And then in terms of the build of the actual scenic, we do that from top to bottom.

Another example is that we're working with a YouTube channel, developing a show called "Gracie's Corner," which is an amazing property that's getting over a hundred million views a month on YouTube. And rounding the corner on 2 billion views on TikTok, it's really a special property. The reason I bring this up is just the contrast between the creative process with a brand on a linear TV or a media giant versus a YouTube channel, which is a bit more of an organic project—everything has to be created. All of the visual content needs to be creative. Any narrative would need to be created. All of the choreography from scratch would need to be produced, staged, blocked, etc. So they're the same buckets, but you're filling them in different ways. That's the exciting part for us: building these shows from scratch.

LP: Something I've always been curious about is maintaining character integrity. What's the appropriate way for the character to behave? How does the character's personality come through? And not just things like swear words or innuendo or things like that, but having kids and being in this business, kids watch the same stuff over and over again. They're so familiar with this IP and these universes. How does that translate from a company that is managing a character? How do you get that institutional knowledge of "the character would never react this way" or "this character doesn't yell"? If you get that wrong, the universe collapses.

Jonathan Shank: You know, what I find is that within each one of these companies, there's like the one person who knows exactly what the character would say or what the mannerisms would be. So, the short answer to your question is that we do character training. There are guidelines, and we do training days with the various characters to make sure that their mannerisms are correct and that when they're posing with fans, everything is done a certain way. And that's going to embody not just the physical look of the character but embody the character holistically. From a producer standpoint, I hold myself to a pretty high standard. When it comes to these things, as a parent, and not only as a parent but as an adult who will be going to pay for some of these immersive experiences, if it's not going to be a first-class experience, then it should be left alone. We're all holding ourselves to a certain standard. But tactically, everybody gets trained on how to be each one of these characters. And there are small pools of people that are great at it.

LP: That's interesting.

Jonathan Shank: Yeah, it's really interesting. And a lot of these people come from the dance community because movement is so much a part of it. And, of course, when you're in a costume, you're emoting just as much through body movement as you are through verbalization. It is a unique art form and certainly one that's underappreciated.

LP: Yeah. Well, what you described reminded me of when you're working with an artist; it's like sometimes there's the superfan who has worked their way into the management world. And is it either on payroll, or is the one that management knows if we're going to write something in the artist's voice? This person knows how to do it, or this person knows the right way to refer to that incident because they can channel the artist.

Jonathan Shank: You know, the funny part about what you just said is that I felt like I was that guy when I was working for Mickey Hart. And I felt everybody who was in the orbit of The Dead was that person. That's so funny. Everybody who worked in the orbit of The Dead had that knowledge, that deeper sense of community of what this was all about. Yeah, what you're saying comes from experience and just seeing how people react to various things, how to put a group of people together, how to make sure that the fans and the crew and artists are super-served. That's really what you're describing. The senses that they're tapping into are how to manage a group of people and, how to help lift them all the time, and just continuing to figure out a creative path. But on the business side, it kind of all converges, right? Because you're just trying to lift this, whether it's an IP project or an artist, it's the same skillset for all of these projects. Whether you're managing an artist or producing a tour, it's many of the same skillsets. That's what I come back to a lot in my experience.

LP: What was the first family entertainment property you worked with? And were you met with immediate commercial success, or did you have to take a few stabs at it?

Jonathan Shank: Alright, so here's the story. The very first thing that I was interested in was Yo Gabba Gabba. I wrote a business plan and got a business model out of it. Shortly thereafter, I started managing Victoria Justice. Right as that started to take off and she was on Nickelodeon, I got involved with the Fresh Beat Band. The Fresh Beat Band had incredible success domestically here in North America. I had a lot of commercial success, and I thought that's the way all preschool and family projects were. We put up eight beacons for this group, and it blew out immediately. And I was going, "I should have been doing this the whole time." Meanwhile, ever since then, that's like my litmus test: could they blow out eight beacons?

LP: Two shows a day, Thursday through Sunday. Is that how that business works?

Jonathan Shank: Yeah, it was two shows. As you're successful, more doors open. And so, after that, it was Octonauts, Teletubbies, Power Rangers, and then Disney Junior, so it's been amazing to be part of so many of these iconic brands. But also, now the way content is out in the world, it's a whole new pond. Looking into YouTube, all the streamers, and the ability for a two-year-old to call out Alexa and ask for music. The way that people listen to music and change their listening habits from a young age affects the algorithms of things like lullabies and nursery rhymes. These verticals are actually becoming very important to the major music groups, the Universals and Sony Music Groups. Compared to what I was telling you, my beginnings in working in family entertainment, there's more interest in it now than there was in 2010 when I was trying to chase after Yo Gabba Gabba. It feels like now people want to talk about it. Maybe record labels want to sign it. And that's been exciting for me to watch that because it felt like it was always on a side dish for everyone. So it's cool.

LP: Outside of things like metrics, what elements have to be there when you're identifying a new piece of IP, or somebody knocks on your door? What's the filter that you run it through? What are the criteria that you have to see?

Jonathan Shank: It's the team. Going back to what we were talking about, treat it like an artist, right? Who's the lawyer? Who's the business manager? Who's the agent? Who's doing the toys or consumer products? What's the connectivity? Just starting there. What else makes it a brand? What else sets it apart? You can look at metrics all day long, but you also have to go with your gut. People talk about algorithms and metrics and all this stuff. Sometimes, what people don't talk about, especially with regard to family entertainment, is what the kids want. Just the same way an artist should be asking, what does my audience want? We should look at it through the lens of what the kids want. And that's the kind of reverse engineering. The idea is to pierce pop culture in some way. If it's just going to exist as a YouTube channel or as a Netflix show, it's probably not a franchise. It's not a brand. We're really excited about things that are going to become like massive global franchises.

LP: Has a project ever stumped you? A piece of IP walks in the door, and you're like, "I can't get this onto the stage."

Jonathan Shank: Power Rangers was so hard. I loved that show so much. But if somebody can tell me how to figure out getting these characters jumping around on stage for 90 minutes, but they can't talk the whole time, it was really challenging from a narrative standpoint. And also, you want it to be scalable. You want, you know, Power Rangers, you think of something big, and you don't want it to look small on stage. That one was a big challenge. It was one that I always thought should have been a huge tour years ago. Back to that word, it didn't have that connective tissue at that moment. So that one was challenging, for sure. There's been a lot of these different challenges. The biggest thing is trying not to overdo it and not overproduce something. It's all about the detail and the refinement as opposed to overdoing it. Trying to think about things that way is a big help.

LP: What we were talking about earlier, it seems easy to dismiss, but the notion of just because the audience is young doesn't mean it doesn't have to ring true to them and be authentic to them. It's just the same way that a classic rock artist wouldn't make a K-pop album. You're not going to have Thomas the Tank Engine come out and behave like Lightning McQueen.

Jonathan Shank: Stay on brand. Stay in your lane. And I talk about that kind of stuff all the time, especially not just what you just said, but lean in, you know, lean into the strength of the brand and that core audience. And one of the biggest commonalities between working with artists and working with brands? They're all built to cater to core audiences and bases. Going back to your very first question about Terrapin Station, all of these entities are built off core audiences, whether it's Disney, Bob Marley, or artists that have great core audiences. And think about, even right now, the biggest core audience in entertainment, Taylor Swift. That's where it all starts. The world that I want to be in is finding projects that have core audiences, and they might be family entertainment, artist-driven, or brand-driven. This decade, especially, has highlighted how important it is to have a core audience because if you have that, you might not need a label or a network. You really can call your shots, whether it's Peppa Pig or Super Kitty, or on the other side, artists like Billy Strings or Goose are building their core audience. The goal is that they'll be able to serve that audience for a long period of time. We're all telling the same story.

LP: To use that as the pivot point, I want to ask you a bit about your relationship with Mickey Hart and I know you've told the story a bunch of times, so I was reading about how your first interaction with him was in a sort of meeting environment, right?

Jonathan Shank: Yeah. A conference room.

LP: But by the end of the meeting, he had asked you to come work on a project with him.

Jonathan Shank: Yeah, it was teed up.

LP: Did you know at the time, or do you know in retrospect what he saw in you or what he liked about you?

Jonathan Shank: I've never really truly thought about it, but thinking about it now, I had nothing on the line at that moment. I wasn't pitching him to be his manager. I was just happy to be in the meeting. And so I think because of that, there was no guard, and Mickey has an amazing personality. If you're in his orbit, he is very welcoming and really brings you in. At that moment, he was wanting to explore live electronic music. So he had set up this collaboration with Particle, which became Hydra. You know, to answer your question, I didn't have any preconceived notions. I didn't want or need anything from him. I was just there with some pure ideas and happy to be there. And then, even when we went up to his house, I was much looser because I was like, this is my chance to hang out with Mickey Hart. So I wasn't thinking about a whole bunch of business; I was just being myself, and that's how the relationship was built. I had nothing at stake. I was just there for the music. (Laughter) He did take a liking to me and to what we were doing. And then, after the project ended, I figured that that might be where that chapter ended. But what ended up happening is that six months or a year after that project ended, we reconnected over another project. And that's when I realized this wasn't just about the project; it could be something more. Yeah. By 2006, I was managing all of his projects at that point. He wanted to put back together the Rhythm Devils and Planet Drum and Mickey Hart Band, so all of a sudden, I was managing all of these projects in an entirely different stratosphere in terms of planning and producing events; we had to produce the whole trench as well. So that's where I got my initial experience as a producer. I'd never produced anything prior to that. And the fact that after working with him, I felt fearless. He would say certain things to test to see how far I would go with certain things, like, do you think we should fire this guy? Or do you think we should work with this guy? He was definitely in a very inclusive relationship, and I credit him for letting me be part of it and letting me build on some creativity. He's super passionate and works harder than almost any musician I've ever met.

LP: Something is interesting about the people, especially from around our generation. You might be just a couple of years younger than me. And then some of the guys are a few years older than me, but even going as old as Corin on down to some people younger, I can't think of a lot of artists who have their business looked after by people who adamantly identify as fans. So many artists don't want you fawning over them or talking about the fandom. I've always wondered if the guys in the Dead knew that you had to really get them and understand, like, what they were and weren't going to do for money. You know what I mean? Like, they had just a different thing.

Jonathan Shank: I think every person that I've worked with was a fan. Either was a fan beforehand or had become a head during the time. It touched them in a special way. When you touch something like that, it's like nothing you've ever experienced before. Before the pandemic, I was with Mickey, and I got to tell him I went up to his house, and we hung out for the day. And I remember we were just like walking around his property, whatever. And at one point in the conversation, I was like, "Yeah, you helped do this. Like you helped get me to this place." And he had this great response where he said, "Well, I always knew the force was strong within you." (Laughter) And that's who he is as a person. After that conversation, I felt even more empowered. He's a really special human. Everybody that has worked in their circles, whether it's for the individual members of the band or where they were labeled, there's definitely a special camaraderie amongst all those people because it's like they know the movements. There's a unique bond between all of those people. When you run into them at shows years later, you look at one another, and you know there's that special bond.

LP: I wanted to ask you about the exhibition business. You had this interactive installation experience with the Marley Estate. The rock and roll exhibition business, in particular, is even more dramatically hit-driven. Then the business is overall, right? It really seems like only the strong survive. And I'm assuming it's because there's a big nut to get these things up and running, and they have to be able to sit somewhere to make their money. It's almost more like a Broadway show than a touring entity. What do you see in the exhibition space? Do you look at it lovingly? Is it something you'd like to do more of? Or are you like, "Man, I've had my fill?"

Jonathan Shank: Oh, I love it. The Marley project is something that was just incredibly inspiring and an honor to be part of. Certainly, we had a moment where everything was projection-mapped, and we were thinking about some of the Van Gogh-type exhibits, etc. In terms of the artist-driven, it is rare to have an artist who's successful enough to be able to drive a standalone exhibit. There are only a few Marleys and Elvises and Pink Floyds and David Bowies in the world. The future of these types of experiences is figuring out how to do them in real-time alongside the tours. And these can become immersive retail drip experiences that are complementary to the tours that are happening. And to use some examples, BTS was incredibly successful with this when they had their tour. I know Taylor had a few pop-ups in New York along her tour. But this model could work in the future for a lot bigger swath of artists than just those in that rarefied air. U2 has an immersive Vegas that's happening right now. That's ancillary to what's happening at the Sphere. That kind of stuff's going to work perfectly.

LP: That's really interesting. When we did the two Bowie stores, as you'd imagine, people came out of the woodwork, pitching various ideas about other things to do with it. And that really wasn't the point of the Bowie 75 thing, so we didn't pursue much of it. But it's interesting the ideas that are percolating out there around doing some of these things as ancillary shows or pop-up events around festivals. We don't have to rabbit hole on it too much, but when you talk about that model or that iteration of it, in your mind, are those separate ticketed events, or are they essentially ways to get people to come in and buy merchandise? Is it a gift shop?

Jonathan Shank: The future is that this is going to get wrapped in the ticket price at some point, but until that happens, it's a separately ticketed event. Going back to our conversation about the core audience, if we're going to have 200,000 people come to a show in Las Vegas at Allegiant or over a period of time at the Sphere, then it makes sense because you know you've got a destination, a couple of hundred thousand core fans. And we're going to be able to activate in that space. What you're saying is the crux to the entire immersive space right now, which is that we're willing to pay $20 to see a movie right now. But if somebody wants us to go see an immersive experience, almost everybody's looking for a discounted ticket to go see that experience. And that's where the rubber hits the road with a lot of these immersive experiences: you're paying to see a movie in a theater that's also playing in theaters around the country. You're paying $20 to go to an immersive experience that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Right. That's a premium event. And so I think that's the key to the future. Unfortunately, you're not presenting an actual artist, it's going to fall into the other forms of entertainment where people are just going to look at it as something they can do on a Thursday or Friday night. So, figuring out how to make it more of a premium experience and connect it to other larger events is the key to this whole space. The other thing I'll say is that immersive continues to be working amazingly globally, and North America, I don't believe, is at the forefront. Ticket sales for immersive experiences, Canada, Europe, London, South America, the Middle East, Japan, really, if you look at what's happening globally, they're blowing it out of the water. A lot of the entertainment dollars in America are going to mainstream talent. I think globally, there's less access to that. Therefore, the dollar stretch is in different places. The technology in Japan and some parts of the world is further ahead than what we have here in terms of immersive. We're off the artist immersive at this point, but even when you're talking about the Meow Wolfs of the world, there are places in South America and Japan that are equally or greater in terms of immersive. The global market for immersive is thriving. The domestic market is very finicky.

LP: Your point about the mainstream talent hoovering up a lot of the market share could be its own hour to talk about. It's not a sign of health in the ecosystem. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. This can lead us to the last question I have for you. What is your outlook on touring, given that we seem to be in this sky 's-the-limit moment? Yet, when you talk to certain segments of the market, people are still struggling. It's a tale of, if not two markets, two or three markets, low, mid, and high, and they all have unique perspectives. It's not the case that everybody's blowing the doors off everything.

Jonathan Shank: That's correct. Things cost a lot more money now than they did a handful of years ago. The middle class of touring is a tough place to be right now because you still have to pay for the production, the buses, the trucks, and everything else.

LP: Still want to put on a show? Yeah.

Jonathan Shank: Still want to put on a show. Quality needs to be there, but your gross can only be so high. I'm very positive about the next five or six years. I think they're going to be amazing. The challenge is that there's so much content out there. It's a great time to be an agent. You're not in the risk game. You're not promoting. You have to play the show. The promoters need you. The artists need you. I think it's an amazing time to be an agent. The amount of content is going to continue to grow, which is going to make things more competitive. But in terms of gross sales, it's going to go up and up and up.

I actually see that middle-class touring ticket prices will have to catch up a little bit. What I've seen is that theater ticket prices and even some arena ticket prices are starting to inch up there. Still, in order for that sector and even the club, ballroom theater, or amphitheater-size artists and projects, I think it's either going to be one of two things: the volume of touring or ticket prices are going to have to keep increasing in order for that sector to survive. In my opinion, there shouldn't be a $20 concert to go to anymore. Why should we pay less to go to a concert than to a movie? You can barely go to a fast-food restaurant for less than $20. But the flip side to what I'm saying is that the top end is massive. And that's why the dollars at the top end are just going to keep going. It's not going to stop. You will see really bullish growth over these next handful of years because everybody's still going to feel like they need to catch up from 2020 to 2021. What happens, though, is that the bubble, I don't know if it'll burst, is just going to keep getting bigger in terms of the number of tours. It's not like that strategic thing like you used to be with agents where you're going, "Oh, this one's going to tour this year. And then that one's going to tour next year." It's like everybody's touring every year.

LP: Right. Just get your on-sales out the door. It's interesting, Jonathan. About 20 years ago, I remember working on global tours where there was a segment of the market doing VIP or travel packages to serve the top end of the market. And in all those cases, the artists were always careful about saying, "Yes, but our average ticket price is blah, blah, blah. Look at it compared to Broadway or take your family to a baseball game." But my point where I'm going is the market's always been there. It's that it's much more mainstream now. The biggest repercussion or the biggest thing that changed coming out of COVID was the mainstream acceptance of dynamic pricing. Like, what was seen as experimental and limited to a few, now it's basically like, I don't know if you see it in the film and entertainment world, but certainly on the rock side, like it's baked into, it's offers are predicated on it. It's like, this is the new reality.

Jonathan Shank: Yeah. And it's going to keep getting more aggressive. Look, the demand is there for more shows. There might be too many festivals out there, but it's likely going to keep growing.

LP: I'm waiting for you to put on the family entertainment festival. I want to see the Kidapalooza that you do. (Laughter)

Jonathan Shank: We've explored it. We do have a few ideas for bigger outdoor stuff, nap rooms, and how to scale some of this stuff. There are so many challenges with family entertainment to think about, especially if you're going to get people out in the summertime. If there's a way to figure it out, we will try to crack it.

LP: And that, I have no doubt about, my friend. Thank you for making time to do this, man.